Garmin strategy

[wilf]

I'm not sure if this is the correct area of the forum.

I'll tell you what I've experienced. I am president of a cycling association in Northern Germany and have had Tacx trainers for 12 years with all software versions: iMagic (green), FORTIUS (blue), TTS1, TTS3 and TTS4, and since November also TDA and Zwift. Other apps from time to time as trial versions.

At trade fairs or sports festivals, I always installed iMagics with TTS4 installed to get children and teenagers on the racing bike. I found that their interest is clearly in competitions, VR LAN racing or VR with virtual opponents was very popular. Older participants were more likely to test RLV, if possible from the area (there are a number of third party RLVs from our area). Is a form of cycling tourism.

Our state has been promoting eSports since 2019 and I have been working hard for 2 years to build up funding for the establishment of a permanent training facility for my club and association outside of Hamburg. I would like to work with Garmin / Tacx and use both TTS4 with LAN Racing and Zwift. I wrote this to Tacx as well as Garmin and Zwift to get a sponsorship for the purchase as well as for the licenses. It is clear to me that TTS4 has expired. But no problem either, because I have enough running computers.

What do you think the reactions have been? Neither Tacx nor Garmin think it is necessary to show a reaction. Nothing. Zwift has reported that it is not possible to obtain licenses as an association. But it is interesting that children / adolescents under 16 can get free licenses. Also they will help to get a discount for purchasing trainers.

I did tests that TTS4 works with CycleOps Hammer or Wahoo KickR.

What do you think who I'm negotiating with? And who I recommend in the discussions with BDR (German Cycling), who continued to form the German Cycling Academy in Zwift for racing as well as mass sport on my initiative last winter and in the current situation.

Garmin marketing. Have they a strategy for thier own software? They sell the trainers with the argument, that you can run Zwift on it.

[Malfukt]

Garmin marketing. Have they a strategy for their own software? They sell the trainers with the argument, that you can run Zwift on it.

The strategy seems to be LET IT FADE INTO THE ETHER they don`t seem to want to invest in their own (Tacx) software

[BerthaVision]

Whats the aim Wilf? is it cycling tourism in your area? A few years ago we filmed all over Catalonia for the Catalan tourist bord so they could have some exposure with the Tacx customer base. The Catalans just paid for some of our accomodation & we paid for the films to be made bsed on their own route ideas. Normally there was no way would ever film in Spain in July & we did melt a bit but this is why we have now such a large collection of rides in this part of the world. There is nobody at Tacx or Garmin who is going to help you with TTS4 they have dropped this software like a lead balloon due to the new privacy laws etc. Garmin is a huge coorporation contacting them is like trying to do something with Ford.

If you wanted specific routes made thats me you need to talk with, I can get you someone if you want free subscriptions. Normally Germany is our next target , We do not have a lot outside of Bavaria & the Black Forest.

[mcorn]

Tacx has mostly been a hardware company that provides software to enhance hardware sales. Garmin may turn out to be a little different. Garmin has only owned Tacx for a year, so I am still in a wait and see mode in terms of what they do with the Tacx hardware and software.

As I have said elsewhere, I have no problem letting TTS go away as I thought it was not a very good product, although I would have liked to see some kind of additional accommodation for those who have purchased recent versions of TTS and TTS videos.

[wilf]

Whats the aim Wilf?

The goal of the funding is eSports. Our state government supports eSoccer but also egoshooter etc. and wants an eSport Center in Kiel.

The German Olympic Board and many others like me said that this is not a sport (maybe eSoccer). So I said in the discussions that e-cycling is sport and the examples from Holland and Great Britain showed it very clearly so the funding (purchase of hardware and software for an e-cycling arena) was approved.

The first target group in the association is youth work in cooperation with schools. They are used to doing sports in a schedule. Driving out on the road poses the risk of an accident or a delay due to defects. Not in a room with 10-12 trainers. The second group are the older cyclists (mostly), they make tours similar to cyclosportives. There would also be an interface to tourism, since cycling sport in public space is viewed as tourism.

As part of the country's sports development planning, I have a lot of contacts with the tourism agency. I will try to get them excited about your idea. Unfortunately we are not blessed with mountains, but with a lot of wind, water and some hills in beautiful surroundings. However, I also try to persuade them to build a training area like Col du VAM .

A worthwhile sporting event would be the Hamburg Cyclassics, the largest everyone's race in Germany.

I have no problem suspending TTS4 support. But the functions Virtual Reality (with bot opponents) and LAN Racing is very helpful for a youth training and I don't see anything comparable with any competitor. I miss the SuperMario from the iMagic software (green) that could fly and collect gifts. Great for kids. But how many of you know how to use TTS4 and know a few workarounds.

I would also not ask any of Tacx's experts, rather seek help from AIM Productions . But as I said, I have enough PCs running TTS4 satisfactorily.

I would never rely on online apps for a fixed establishment. 40 years in IT with many trade fair appearances, I always want an offline version that runs after switching on. At the moment, the competition is also hearing that bandwidths are being cut by some telco companies, since the companies have switched to home office and video conferencing.

[wilf]

Tacx has mostly been a hardware company that provides software to enhance hardware sales. Garmin may turn out to be a little different. Garmin has only owned Tacx for a year, so I am still in a wait and see mode in terms of what they do with the Tacx hardware and software.

As I have said elsewhere, I have no problem letting TTS go away as I thought it was not a very good product, although I would have liked to see some kind of additional accommodation for those who have purchased recent versions of TTS and TTS videos.

I have had several generations of Garmin GPS bike navigation systems since 2000. They have never been better than Tacx software, which I have known for 12 years. I can only say I have 4 iMagic in my basement that are almost 20 years old - but they still work. Also all software versions. OK, I also have a laptop from 1987 that still works. I have not used CP/M systems for a long time, I am waiting for a museum to have it.

The Garmin User Forum is also full of users who complain loudly about the quality of the software.

Since I've worked for US companies for many years, I can only say that they are not only managed by lawyers but also by bean counters (Erbsenzähler - that's what we call accountants). If a quarterly report is incorrect twice, a branch of business is mercilessly stamped out. No heart for cycling sport, which I suspected at Tacx.

[nzuraw]

Since I've worked for US companies for many years, I can only say that they are not only managed by lawyers but also by bean counters (Erbsenzähler - that's what we call accountants). If a quarterly report is incorrect twice, a branch of business is mercilessly stamped out. No heart for cycling sport, which I suspected at Tacx.

Sounds about right and inline with my experience with US companies alas.

[BerthaVision]

Since I've worked for US companies for many years, I can only say that they are not only managed by lawyers but also by bean counters (Erbsenzähler - that's what we call accountants). If a quarterly report is incorrect twice, a branch of business is mercilessly stamped out. No heart for cycling sport, which I suspected at Tacx.

Sounds about right and inline with my experience with US companies alas.

My experience with big American companies (ok it should be company) is probably much worse then all of you.

[mcorn]

Before everyone goes crazy with nutty generalities about all American companies, keep in mind that Tacx made a decision to retire TTS as a legacy product before it was acquired by Garmin. It is obvious that this was a long-term strategy that Tacx adopted years before the Garmin acquisition due to shortcomings in the product.

Over many years, I have had and used the following Tacx trainers and hardware:

Fortius (both 110 volt and 220 volt versions)
USB analog wired steerer
Flow USB
Bushido USB
Genius/Ironman non-smart
Vortex non-smart
Blacktrack wireless steerer
Vortex Smart
Genius Smart
Flow Smart
Neo2T Smart
Flux 2 Smart

Most of these I bought at retail. Some were provided by Tacx for testing, some were replaced under warranty due to problems, and some were sold to me with a modest tester discount. Candidly, the only ones I regarded as well-built and reliable were the Imagic, Flow Smart, Neo2T Smart, and Flux2 Smart, although I have only had the last 2 for less than a year. The 110 volt Fortius was an absolute disaster and a nightmare of a product even after Tacx fixed the self-destruct on shut down problem. Many of the stainless-steel banded urethane roller models (most on the list) tended to have premature early failure problems with the roller and were virtually unserviceable. It became an expensive throw-away for want of a $20 replacement part and lack of serviceability. US service for these products was often close to non-existent. The USB steerer was okay but the Blacktrack was junk. I liked the Imagic and Flow Smart because they were simple and less prone to failure even if they did not generate high resistance. Their eddy-current design was similar to a RacerMate CompuTrainer, which I also owned two of.

I have tested all versions of the Tacx software, except the early yellow version for those who remember that. The Fortius software was unusable when I bought my first Fortius trainer many years ago soon after US release, but after about 6 months it got stable and usable. TTS was a nightmare development project. TTS1 and TTS2 as released were not even beta-quality. Only TTS3 got stable, but TTS4 went thought a far-too lengthy debug process, partly driven by addition of features that were too complicated and would crash the program. The last version of TTS4.23 has a monstrous 5GB install file and everything about it was clunky and cumbersome.

TDA is pretty good, but it took forever to get there.

So, for all of these reasons, I look forward to any improvement that a crappy, money-hungry company like Garmin might bring to the table. My personal experience with Garmin products, both cycling and non-cycling, has been generally good. As I look back, what stands out to me with the Fortius, TTS, and TDA software and mobile software development programs was how slow they were to get to market in decent form and how many bugs that took forever to recognize and fix. Tacx must have spent an ungodly fortune getting these software products to market. I feel fairly confident that this could be greatly improved by a company that values efficiency and cost-containment. That is actually a service to customers.

[BerthaVision]

Mike I think you’re talking about the customer side. All I can say is my experience so far with dealing with them has been a bit on the grim side. I hope for you that it all goes well & that you will have a product that you will enjoy using. Maybe for me its just poor luck so far with the censorship issue & now one regarding our relationship with the company.

[mcorn]

Mike I think you’re talking about the customer side. All I can say is my experience so far with dealing with them has been a bit on the grim side. I hope for you that it all goes well & that you will have a product that you will enjoy using. Maybe for me its just poor luck so far with the censorship issue & now one regarding our relationship with the company.

You may not have been talking about the customer side, but others were.

Don't know what the specific censorship issue is, but when you go to work for someone you kind of give up the right to be a free-wheeling critic of your employer. Everyone has the alternative of not working for someone they don't like and then you are free to criticize all you please. All large organizations, except maybe for some government employers, tend to operate this way.

[wilf]

So, for all of these reasons, I look forward to any improvement that a crappy, money-hungry company like Garmin might bring to the table. My personal experience with Garmin products, both cycling and non-cycling, has been generally good. As I look back, what stands out to me with the Fortius, TTS, and TDA software and mobile software development programs was how slow they were to get to market in decent form and how many bugs that took forever to recognize and fix. Tacx must have spent an ungodly fortune getting these software products to market. I feel fairly confident that this could be greatly improved by a company that values efficiency and cost-containment. That is actually a service to customers.

I didn't say Garmin is a crappy, money-hungry company. I am a business economist myself and know that a company has to make money to finance research and development. However, the reliance on corporate governance on quarterly reports is much higher in the United States than in other countries. Strategic alignments have sometimes been the subject of years, see the electronics (entertainment) industry for the past 2 decades. The renowned German manufacturers ridiculed the Japanese (e.g. SONY) when they came onto the German market. Today there is no German manufacturer anymore. I have been with the largest German telecommunications company for the past 20 years. There is no real one left from the German hardware suppliers.

If we look at the market of interest here, it is not just about Zwift and Garmin (and RGT, Rouvy and some others). If Garmin wants to concentrate on the sale of hardware, then they are in the market from Wahoo, Saris etc., which start with cooperations such as Wahoo with Zwift, Saris (CycleOps) with Rouvy. What if Thinkrider X7, Magene and OneLap open and change their pricing policies? What if Garmin Edge is seriously attacked by not only Wahoo but also Bryton, Meilan and IGSSport?

At the moment I can't see which direction Garmin wants to go. Are you a sports equipment supplier for many outdoor sports and a navigation company for road and water? If you look at the market for navigation systems, it was a business with hardware and annual map updates for years. What is hardware sold today, map updates are free based on Open Street Maps.

That's what I'm afraid that they want to sell hardware and sacrifice their own software, because the other market providers sell licenses with great advertising effort and retain customers. Marketing for Garmins own complete solution (hardware and software) is practically non-existent. We have ideas on what the customer can do better than with the competition, who use RLV for a long time, but are not conveyed to the new customer. Garmin does not want to cooperate with organized sports (from which I come), Zwift has cooperations with British Cycling, German Cycling and others. I could imagine improvements there. But not responding at all is anything but a strategy.

The subject of TTS4 is no longer a problem for me. I do not share your opinion that it is a bad solution. It offers something for every taste of RLV (with today's computer hardware, RLV’s from 2008 are also great as in TDA), VR (better to look at than Zwift, has Bots and LAN racing) and tests / workouts. I have enough licenses for my club or federation applications and can handle them. Anyone who can operate Windows from version 1.0 (1984) to Windows 10 knows what banana software is (ripens at the customer). Incidentally, from 1982 I had a Xerox workstation that was decades ahead of Windows, but were pushed to the wall by marketing.

For my purposes (to build an arena for youth and seniors) see neither Zwift nor TDA usable. I currently prefer TTS4 (LAN Racing) and Rouvy (new function in augmented reality - Group Riding).

[wilf]

Excuse me, sometimes I provoke in forums / discussions to generate opinions.

[mcorn]

Excuse me, sometimes I provoke in forums / discussions to generate opinions.

No reason to excuse yourself, but you did say that American companies "are not only managed by lawyers but also by bean counters", so I assumed you put Garmin on that list (even though it is technically a Swiss company). But I would certainly take major exception to the assertion "RLV’s from 2008 are also great as in TDA." Frankly, there is no comparison in quality between the two vintages.

I think the LAN function in TTS4 is a niche feature probably used by less than 1% of TTS4 users, at least on any kind of regular basis. Not sure why you find the TDA multi-rider feature unacceptable, but it is hard seeing a good reason to have a LAN function that likely gets so little use by customers.

I don't think Garmin acquired Tacx to just keep it as mostly a Euro-centric product line. Good availability of Tacx products, including service, has been sporadic in the US in the past, so I would expect that to change. I can only assume that Garmin saw the US market as a major opportunity for growth, but it is probably going to take some time for us to see exactly what Garmin intends to do. But if you look at Garmin's most recent Form 10-K, you will see that Garmin's fitness products are its single largest revenue category, consisting of 28% of its sales, with much of the recent growth driven by the Tacx acquisition; however, fitness products are only 18% of the company's operating income. Garmin does not say much publicly about its plans for Tacx, but I doubt they intend to keep it stagnant.

https://www8.garmin.com/aboutGarmin/inv ... 19_10K.pdf

As I said before, I think it would make sense to loosen up the TTS4 situation so customers can get reasonable usage of their prior purchases even though Tacx was warning about this for some time. The product is going to die its own death anyway, but they ought to do what is reasonably possible to preserve customer good-will. I don't think doing that would cost them much money in the long run.

[BerthaVision]

Mike I don’t work for Garmin, they just licensed our work just as Tacx did before.

[wilf]

Excuse me, sometimes I provoke in forums / discussions to generate opinions.

No reason to excuse yourself, but you did say that American companies "are not only managed by lawyers but also by bean counters", so I assumed you put Garmin on that list (even though it is technically a Swiss company). But I would certainly take major exception to the assertion "RLV’s from 2008 are also great as in TDA." Frankly, there is no comparison in quality between the two vintages.

I think the LAN function in TTS4 is a niche feature probably used by less than 1% of TTS4 users, at least on any kind of regular basis. Not sure why you find the TDA multi-rider feature unacceptable, but it is hard seeing a good reason to have a LAN function that likely gets so little use by customers.

I don't think Garmin acquired Tacx to just keep it as mostly a Euro-centric product line. Good availability of Tacx products, including service, has been sporadic in the US in the past, so I would expect that to change. I can only assume that Garmin saw the US market as a major opportunity for growth, but it is probably going to take some time for us to see exactly what Garmin intends to do. But if you look at Garmin's most recent Form 10-K, you will see that Garmin's fitness products are its single largest revenue category, consisting of 28% of its sales, with much of the recent growth driven by the Tacx acquisition; however, fitness products are only 18% of the company's operating income. Garmin does not say much publicly about its plans for Tacx, but I doubt they intend to keep it stagnant.

https://www8.garmin.com/aboutGarmin/inv ... 19_10K.pdf

As I said before, I think it would make sense to loosen up the TTS4 situation so customers can get reasonable usage of their prior purchases even though Tacx was warning about this for some time. The product is going to die its own death anyway, but they ought to do what is reasonably possible to preserve customer good-will. I don't think doing that would cost them much money in the long run.

It should explain my motives, more than an excuse. I love discussions more than "one function doesn't work". These questions are part of a reasonable service.

The fact that Garmin's tax headquarters are located in Schaffhausen / Switzerland is like the headquarters of German companies on the Cayman Islands. An employee sits there, scans the incoming mail and sends it to the correct company headquarters.

Seriously, my e-cycling arena project is a niche project. However, today's reality is hidden behind it. Organized (UCI) voluntary sport against (or with?) Professional agency sport. You saw it at Tacx, there were IRONMAN courses in TTS4, no more in TDA. It's all a question of license fees. No matter or IRONMAN, the project is save. Drive an 80 km route, it doesn't matter whether VGA resolution or 4K. Just like Zwift Grafik or BKOOL or RGT. You exert yourself and see only half (or less).

But again GARMIN / Tacx strategy. Today there was La Ronde 2020 on Facebook or GCN. Garmin / Tacx distributed hardware to some participants on Facebook, the event ran with the BCOOL app. Why not with the films from TDA or Phil?

Because Garmin Marketing is sleeping - or TDA is of no interest.
I hope that Garmin / Tacx has the right focus for development, not just which World Tour team uses Tacx water bottles.

OK, I'm only looking at the European / German market. And I love racing biking.

[mcorn]

Drive an 80 km route, it doesn't matter whether VGA resolution or 4K. Just like Zwift Grafik or BKOOL or RGT. You exert yourself and see only half (or less).

Well, I think racers are a different creature altogether. These are folks who are accustomed to enduring pain and boredom for long periods of time. But I don't think that is the real customer for these kinds of fitness products. I went back and compared the TTS 2008 Lombardy video with the current TDA release. The video image in 2008 was 1600 x 640 (black bars at the top and bottom) while TDA is full 1920 x 1080P HD. If you compare them on a laptop or a mobile device, it probably does not matter all that much. But on a 50" or bigger large screen HDTV or 4K TV, it is pretty significant. And I think a lot customers do that for home fitness or local recreational rides rather than train for the next TDF.

There are also many other quality differences between the old and new videos that Phil has worked hard to develop. Besides having a much higher quality camera and better platform to capture images with (i.e., Bertha), it is clear to me that has has acquired a great detail of expertise on planning for the proper conditions and lighting for a high quality video. No doubt he also does a lot of post-processing work to optimize the final product. He and I sometimes yak back and forth, but one thing I have always admired is his effort to continually improve the quality of his work, which I think he should be rewarded for.

It is interesting you should mention triathlon bike courses. Many of these tend to be somewhat boring and repetitious. One of the many strategic errors that Racermate made with its CompuTrainer bike trainer (maybe the first of its kind) was the excessive focus on the triathlete market. Once it finally got around to making videos for its system, it spent far too much energy on triathlon courses thinking that its product was mostly for triathletes training for the next competition. Racermate ended up missing the huge growth in the fitness market and went out of business as the rest of world passed it by (I still have two CompuTrainers in storage).

https://medium.com/fresh-tilled-soil/wh ... db524b5747

P.S. I worked and lived close to Racermate headquarters in Seattle for many years and would visit their headquarters and go to their booth in local bike shows and you could see failure written all over the operation. They had a strange kind of arrogance about their static technology. I once helped set up a booth for our tandem bicycle club at a Seattle bike show. I had one of my tandems hooked to a Tacx trainer with videos playing. We had tons of people who wanted to get on for a ride while the Racermate booth just had its old boring power meter software playing. The contrast was quite dramatic.

[Cycling2011]

Well, I think racers are a different creature altogether. These are folks who are accustomed to enduring pain and boredom for long periods of time. But I don't think that is the real customer for these kinds of fitness products. I went back and compared the TTS 2008 Lombardy video with the current TDA release. The video image in 2008 was 1600 x 640 (black bars at the top and bottom) while TDA is full 1920 x 1080P HD. If you compare them on a laptop or a mobile device, it probably does not matter all that much. But on a 50" or bigger large screen HDTV or 4K TV, it is pretty significant. And I think a lot customers do that for home fitness or local recreational rides rather than train for the next TDF.

If you compare the 2013 Lombardy the difference is only small and TTS has the 3 Wiggle girls to follow In fact all the 2012 to 2014 rides i have been completing in TTS4 look great due to a high spec PC and a 4k TV that upscales the picture quality.My screenshots show the results.I use TDA and TTS4 for the been there holiday feeling and my TDF training is done with Sufferfest DVDs and outdoor rides

[mcorn]

If you compare the 2013 Lombardy the difference is only small and TTS has the 3 Wiggle girls to follow In fact all the 2012 to 2014 rides i have been completing in TTS4 look great due to a high spec PC and a 4k TV that upscales the picture quality.My screenshots show the results.I use TDA and TTS4 for the been there holiday feeling and my TDF training is done with Sufferfest DVDs and outdoor rides

With all due respect Dave, we were comparing the 2008 Lombardy video. No PC or monitor, no matter how great, can turn a 1600 x 640 image (1 MP) into a 1920 x 1080 image (2 MP).

In addition, the 2008 TTS videos are 24 fps compared to the 2013 and newer at 30 fps.

[BerthaVision]

If you compare the 2013 Lombardy the difference is only small and TTS has the 3 Wiggle girls to follow In fact all the 2012 to 2014 rides i have been completing in TTS4 look great due to a high spec PC and a 4k TV that upscales the picture quality.My screenshots show the results.I use TDA and TTS4 for the been there holiday feeling and my TDF training is done with Sufferfest DVDs and outdoor rides

With all due respect Dave, we were comparing the 2008 Lombardy video. No PC or monitor, no matter how great, can turn a 1600 x 640 image (1 MP) into a 1920 x 1080 image (2 MP).

2008 would have been a experimental machine vision type camera, the main difference would have been Latitude which is how much detail can be recorded in the shadows & highlights, how large the sensor is which effects the noise in the image. Resolution is another factor but one that can be undone with low bitrate streaming. Lens quality is another that’s forgotten often, if a lens can’t resolve the resolution then you have high resolution water pianting

For the Ironman market, I think it added 20-30% to our sales, but it did come with the poison chalice of having to film some of these events, this meant we had to be in a country on a particular date no matter the weather. They forced us to film hours before the events sometimes in near dark. So I think it may have been break even in the end or even a negative for us. Especially over the last years we could have become bankrupt if we had to film this way in periods with poor luck with clouds rain etc, rather then do the low cost trips we could do with perfect weather that focused on our main market.

Mike is correct when he says they have a different view of the market to the obvious one of focusing on where most cyclists actually ride bikes. They are on the whole outside of the cycling market & more general fitness oriented. For me I welcome that, it will mean they will never understand the routes we film & it may bring something new to the collection, but it’s again all about being able to do this without replicating the mistakes of computrainer. Like Bkool is big in Spain due to the focus there, we could be massive in Belgium if there was the will for it.. here cycling is the national sport. But how about a collection of rides in Taiwan? A language pack in Manderine? Or Japan? I know there is markets there as I raced with riders from these locations in the 90s I had 2 Japanese team mates.. The us market could be as large as the UK one also.

[Cycling2011]

I have all IM films in TTS4.All your IM,filmed with Bertha are superb.These are now collecters edition films.If/when TTS4 dies then these films will be History