Making and Modifying RLVs

[BerthaVision]

I can’t remember the Lombardy Film at all from 2007 I do remember the trip & even the hotel that was right next to one of those bell towers that was sadly fully working...every half hour!

[nzuraw]

The altitude data looks very much like representation in 3D Route Builder. I remember trawling through several thousand entries for a couple RLV's I made of the Richmond Park, UK circuit. Alas, just when it was decent enough I had a drive failure and lost the lot. Never got round to recreating it again.

[ms6073]

Alas, just when it was decent enough I had a drive failure and lost the lot.

I hate when that happens.

[BerthaVision]

We have lost a fair number of drives over the years, especially SSDs...the most notorious was my fault where after filming an Ironman & then nearly a weeks worth of films I became a little drunk & formated the drive on some campsite, ended up having to pay a lab to recover it. We lost the 2012 TDF prologue TT route after a day driving through a blizzard...I did actually see the footage which would have been the best of that year just before I was able to back it up... Lost AmstelGolds raw footage to a dead drive...after that I made a new backup routine to reduce the odds., Self inflicted new rule to never touch the PC after visiting any bars!!

[eri]

I lost photos once. I was playing with drive encryption and just didnt write down the huge key. Nothing nearly as real as your lost footage.

I now use drive mirroring but i think more important i keep all data on blurays away from my house. 50gb each.

Change submitted to golden cheetah to support tts. Wish it had a public spec.

where did all the public rlv/tts tools go? I see mention of them but cant find anything.

[Malfukt]

After similar experiences with lost data I do believe I have more money tied up in backup hard drives than in the originals

[BerthaVision]

After similar experiences with lost data I do believe I have more money tied up in backup hard drives than in the originals

I could never afford to be able to back up most of my footage like for like,  what's in TDA right now is spread of some 70 hard drives & that's since 2013, there is nearly a decade before that on boxes of drives that have become a bit worthless now I guess. I've lost a lot of the small fast SSD type drives we use with the camera, they often do not last a year even but only lost one film due to that (Col du Glandon from the North which we filmed after the Madalaine in 2017....so had to film it again in 2018, & we still have not yet published it...the doomed climb seems to be perpetually in the reserve! haha.. One day I will let it lose, I love the colors in this film, we did it at just the right moment to get that sunflare effect

[Malfukt]

I've lost a lot of the small fast SSD type drives we use with the camera, they often do not last a year

they are not capable of as many rewrites as standard platter drive, also never defragment as that`s a needless rewrite..

colours and contrast in that pic are great.

[nzuraw]

where did all the public rlv/tts tools go? I see mention of them but cant find anything.

Do you mean like RLV studio etc., most are still around - though I don't think many have been updated in a long time.

[BerthaVision]

I've lost a lot of the small fast SSD type drives we use with the camera, they often do not last a year

they are not capable of as many rewrites as standard platter drive, also never defragment as that`s a needless rewrite..

colours and contrast in that pic are great.

For the camera it’s all about write speed Mal many SSDs are not even fast enough

[eri]

After similar experiences with lost data I do believe I have more money tied up in backup hard drives than in the originals

I could never afford to be able to back up most of my footage like for like,  what's in TDA right now is spread of some 70 hard drives & that's since 2013, there is nearly a decade before that on boxes of drives that have become a bit worthless now I guess. I've lost a lot of the small fast SSD type drives we use with the camera, they often do not last a year even but only lost one film due to that (Col du Glandon from the North which we filmed after the Madalaine in 2017....so had to film it again in 2018, & we still have not yet published it...the doomed climb seems to be perpetually in the reserve! haha.. One day I will let it lose, I love the colors in this film, we did it at just the right moment to get that sunflare effect

Wow gorgeous! And such a sweet ui...

[BerthaVision]

Eric ditch the Kickr & get a Tacx haha

[Malfukt]

Wow gorgeous! And such a sweet ui...

You should tell Tacx, I think they are unaware how much this Desktop App is actually liked...

[ms6073]

Sorry for the silly question but is that screen shot from TTS or the Tacx Desktop App?

[Malfukt]

Sorry for the silly question but is that screen shot from TTS or the Tacx Desktop App?

TDA TacxDesktopApp. And each of those "widgets" with the info/data can be removed individually or all at once so see more of the film.. they can also be resized to quite small so as not to obscure film but still see whichever data/info widget you require..

[eri]

Wow gorgeous! And such a sweet ui...

You should tell Tacx, I think they are unaware how much this Desktop App is actually liked...

I don't own a tacx trainer so can't use that software but I know good when I see it.

If that team isn't being appreciated then I feel bad for them. Very professional looking ui, some dedicated people put some good thought into it and I suspect they know they nailed it. I bet there's some friction between them and management.

Makes me cringe to see that layout because of that map... that map... I want a real time maaap… Is going to need to be my next task for golden cheetah but I so hate doing ui.

As far as me getting a tacx trainer... well. I try hard to not be a subscription person. And now browsing the forum it looks like the new tacx subsidiary of garmin isn't good to their customers. Screwing with encryption is already hateful and bad from my perspective, but then they actually turned off the license servers. Who does that? Bankrupt game studios? It is pretty much the disaster that everyone speculates will happen with closed eco-systems. I'm frankly surprised they did it because it is so hard to win back customers after they get all butt-hurt. Is difficult to imagine that I'd ever pay to be Tacx' customer after what they just pulled on you all.

That said... I don't know if I could say no to 4k video of that gorgeous climb. $7/month sounds like a pretty great deal for the few months that I'd use it per year.

[eri]

where did all the public rlv/tts tools go? I see mention of them but cant find anything.

Do you mean like RLV studio etc., most are still around - though I don't think many have been updated in a long time.

Yes, rlv studio was one that got a lot of mention. But the web site is gone. Not seeing it on GitHub.

http://bike.schellnast.at/?page_id=357

[mcorn]

I do not recall very much in the way of TTS tools as the TTS control files are encrypted. There was quite a bit around for the non-encrypted PGMF and RLV control files used for the old Fortius program, which only worked with a 32-bit OS. I remember a few programs like RLV Cockpit, RLV Studio, and Tacx Run Copy, but they are all very old.

[eri]

I do not recall very much in the way of TTS tools as the TTS control files are encrypted. There was quite a bit around for the non-encrypted PGMF and RLV control files used for the old Fortius program, which only worked with a 32-bit OS. I remember a few programs like RLV Cockpit, RLV Studio, and Tacx Run Copy, but they are all very old.

TTS: The CH_Umbrail ride from alucard came with a tts. So someone was making them for 3rd party. Not sure how. I can't seem to find any tools that old threads reference. Not sure why they're gone and haven't been deposited on GitHub.

I could sort of kind of write a tts writer now if I wanted to. But I'd need a really good reason.

It would be nice if there was a public spec for tts instead of just me guessing about stuff. Maybe tacx could lighten up on it now that they've turned off their license servers?

I am looking for a way to find the starting altitude for tts that don't have gps location. Today I just start at zero. Would be such an easy thing to stick an altitude in there but I've not found it yet. Probably hiding in plain sight.

[wilf]

There is another and simple way out of the old FORTIUS *.pgmf and *. rlv control files to make a *.tts file.
You have a PC with a FORTIUS file structure and a running TTS1 program. The TTS1 imports the FORTIUS data and converts it into a *.tts file.
It's even legally clean for Garmin lawyers.
I used to do it often.

[mcorn]

Yes, the TTS1 conversion function was a big loophole in the system, which may be part of the reason that Tacx finally decided to phase out TTS. But there are not that many folks who have a copy of TTS1 running. In addition, I believe the terms of the TTS end user license agreement could be interpreted as restricting use of the conversion function to the licensed user of TTS1 on the user's own computer and would not allow distribution or sale of such encrypted TTS files to others. It is entirely possible that creation of an encrypted TTS file using TTS1 conversion could be seen as creation of a derivative work, which could be covered by copyright laws as well.

[wilf]

It reminds me of my first job at a large US manufacturer 40 years ago. If a customer asked about the terms and conditions (1 page long), we replied: "All rights to me, no rights to the customer."
I'm curious when Microsoft will claim rights to the texts that were written and printed with their software.

[BerthaVision]

Yes, the TTS1 conversion function was a big loophole in the system, which may be part of the reason that Tacx finally decided to phase out TTS. But there are not that many folks who have a copy of TTS1 running. In addition, I believe the terms of the TTS end user license agreement could be interpreted as restricting use of the conversion function to the licensed user of TTS1 on the user's own computer and would not allow distribution or sale of such encrypted TTS files to others. It is entirely possible that creation of an encrypted TTS file using TTS1 conversion could be seen as creation of a derivative work, which could be covered by copyright laws as well.

I don't think that's the reason for moving to a subscription Mike, It was more the competition had already started down that road & Tacx simply wanted a solid option for its own customers to use from opening the box with no surprises that was simple to use. I think they have almost achieved that goal. Its kind of obvious they have a fairly large budget but no actual desire to compete head-on with the alternatives out there. The primary goal is to sell trainers & have something that looks great & does the job directly, hopefully, while making enough in subscriptions to at least fund its self.  Also remember that Garmin Connect costs Garmin millions to develop & actually makes the company nothing in return, again its there as a tool for their hardware (watches & edge) customers can directly use.  
As for TTS4 etc I cant see them being bothered if an individual tries to get more out the older film collection & software.  Im fairly sure they have been told by Garmin to sever the link between it & TTS4. What would cause alarm & Im fairly sure at least a letter from a lawyer would be someone trying to make some cash hosting our films & or data. 
Personally I make such a small amount from any single customer that its almost meaningless unless they can reach many 100s of customers. 

[BerthaVision]

Makes me cringe to see that layout because of that map... that map... I want a real time maaap… Is going to need to be my next task for golden cheetah but I so hate doing ui.

Erik

The map used in that image is actually from a very old version of the software, even then there is a option to flip to the Google Earth view, since then they switched to Microsofts 3d maps which are quite incredible especially for the US where nearly every building is a kind of almost VR 3D . Zoom in & you have a kind of Drone view of the world. So for maps I think they could not make that part any better, even the path is colour shaded for the grades. The mobile apps on the other hand are still fairly basic & rather primative looking, but on the flip side they simply work incredibly fast...open the mobile app on your phone & you can be riding in less then 5 seconds in any location we have filmed.

[eri]

Makes me cringe to see that layout because of that map... that map... I want a real time maaap… Is going to need to be my next task for golden cheetah but I so hate doing ui.

Erik

The map used in that image is actually from a very old version of the software, even then there is a option to flip to the Google Earth view, since then they switched to Microsofts 3d maps which are quite incredible especially for the US where nearly every building is a kind of almost VR 3D . Zoom in & you have a kind of Drone view of the world. So for maps I think they could not make that part any better, even the path is colour shaded for the grades. The mobile apps on the other hand are still fairly basic & rather primative looking, but on the flip side they simply work incredibly fast...open the mobile app on your phone & you can be riding in less then 5 seconds in any location we have filmed.

To my eyes that is a nice looking map. Better than the commodity stuff that's everywhere today.

The maps I would use would be however user configured golden cheetah. I think, in this world, the one constant of map services is that they change and are deprecated. Definitely I've no business telling user what map to use or how to use it. To me the map is some json and css and the horrible c++ that links those things into my world. It makes me bonkers to stress about efficient code and then see what happens with a simple call into a web interface.

Anyway. I'm happy because my change to support tss was accepted into golden cheetah yesterday. It now does full bicycle kinetic energy sim and computes continuous gradients from altitude, where altitude is computed from gradient in the tts file. I sort of went overboard with the precision - which was fun. I'm really curious to hear how the numbers compare to a tacx experience. Like I said above the altitude in the tts files I've seen is unusable but that means tacx doesn't use it either, so the Work to climb a pass should be the same.

I thought the math to compute gradient for the steep switchbacks was really interesting. Non-uniform splines suck. I was sure happy when I finally got the math right.

One of the last things I did was to redo duplicate points on tts load using my cubic interpolator. Here's a before/after sample of some devilish switchbacks on mortirolo.

Slerp between points:

slerp.JPG (15.44 KiB) Viewed 22550 times

Cublic spline:

cubicInterp.JPG (22.3 KiB) Viewed 22550 times

Now I want to see that map get updated while I'm riding!

This thread took a turn. Started with me wanting to know about rewriting rlvs, ended with me being able to happily just ride my tacx disks using the TSS data - and I think I'm happy enough to use stick with them.

You sure have a cool job Bertha. That image above of the ride with that morning light is incredibly enticing.

[eri]

Hey All,

I've been busy with a bunch of stuff, not working on golden cheetah. Was procrastinating and not making the live map. And now our MTB trails are open, I really won't get anything done.

So another guy stepped up to the plate and made it happen. First he made an elevation map overlap and now a live map. The map moves with location.

I'm super psyched.

GC can just use tacx files directly now. Here is a low res snapshot of IT_Stelvio08 playing in golden cheetah 3.6. Uses the tts for location and altitude and also for video sync. Gradient is interpolated.

stelvio_with_map_small.JPG (186.15 KiB) Viewed 22249 times

[BerthaVision]

This is for rides prior to the DRM being added to the TTS files? Ive actually got a drive open with this ride on it right now, just checking out the original data. It looks like we were using at least barometric data back then, the grades should not be too bad, for sure for this ride they are smooth. The speed we averaged was about 22-23kph so about twice what we would do it at now. So your speed is roughly your actual frame rate!

[eri]

This is for rides prior to the DRM being added to the TTS files? Ive actually got a drive open with this ride on it right now, just checking out the original data. It looks like we were using at least barometric data back then, the grades should not be too bad, for sure for this ride they are smooth. The speed we averaged was about 22-23kph so about twice what we would do it at now. So your speed is roughly your actual frame rate!

Hi Bertha,

Folks have been telling me about all the features they used to use on the software with their fortius. Cool stuff. You guys had a cool team building this stuff. I bet theyve forgotten more than i learned.

Heres a thing i learned though... And your devs knew it too.

The reality and accuracy of the altitude data plays second fiddle to the user experience. I started by using altitude data, building a spline and deriving gradient from that. This is the path you get if you rode a smooth line through all the location points. My hope was that this 'true' data would be fine so i could simply re-ride my own recorded rides. I found of course that my phone's gps was too noisy in location, and especially altitude noise made them unridable - i had to smooth to remove noise and make slope reasonable.

I expected that the rlvs i had would do some great smoothing and at least those routes would be ridable, but what i find is that none of the rides have 'good enough' gps data. Instead some schmoe made a new field for 'slope' and that is what the user experiences for their virtual ride. The 'slope' is manually curated, nice and smooth and is lovely to ride. In the end i figured since slope is what users experienced with tacx, i will do the same so i derived altitude from slope when im building location data, and then i build a spline and derive a new slope from that while riding ghe route. In that way the altitude 'work' matches tacx yet we still get a continuous gradient. The alternative would be to have fixed slopes which i thought felt hokey.

What i found was that the tacx altitude data is often usable but it also sometimes truely horrific. See start of mortirolo... I spent a lot of time figuring this out by debugging the stelvio ride and its altitude data is not ridable either (note thats it_stelvio08, with the cool old switchbacks on top, not the current lame modern reroute...) There is noise everywhere but i focused on a segment in the lower valley before the first tunnel where tacx altitude has a bunch of meter steps.

Downside of honoring slope over altitude is that the climb total doesnt match reality, upside is that it is much easier to handle video gaps (the tacx stelvio ride has a few) I'm not happy and feel cheated that the virtual climb is short of the actual pass, but im ok now because the virtual ride is its own thing, i'm riding the classic tacx route from 2008, not the stelvio...

I was really impressed by the quality of the tacx rides once i started using slope. Somebody talented went through and made the slope match the screen really well, even if the gps doesnt. High end product and i think the choices were solid. I really appreciate the craft of the rides i have from tacx even if i think abandoning your old customers is loathsome.

[mickyduck]

"even if i think abandoning your old customers is loathsome."
Hi Eric
we have had this conversation before... not sure it was TACX who were always VERY helpful with their one to one support especially with some issues with the motorbrake not being recognised with some "updates"... I place the blame firmly on Garmin who are not at all interested in supporting something they consider obsolete and obviously provide no income. Of course TACX sold to Garmin without ensuring support for their older products. so I guess they do have some responsibility

[mcorn]

I place the blame firmly on Garmin who are not at all interested in supporting something they consider obsolete and obviously provide no income.

Keep in mind that Tacx announced the legacy status of TTS before it was acquired by Garmin. Given the development of TDA starting in 2017, it was clear the Tacx plan was to drop TTS long before the Garmin acquisition.

I think it would be good for the sake of customer relations to offer some additional incentives to TTS and older trainer customers, but I don't think what Tacx and Garmin have done is very unusual. Non-standard USB and proprietary ANT interfaces are very, very dated technologies. I had an attic full of obsolete computer technologies that I paid a lot for where the same thing happened. None of those companies made any kind of special deal for me when the stuff stopped being supported. You never truly buy a technology product - you just rent it until it is obsolete, which is often well before it actually wears out.